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Guess this is a type of joinery question –
I’m about to embark on making the doors and drawer fronts for our new cabinets. I *don’t* want raised panel doors, in fact, I don’t want paneled doors. I’m trying to eliminate all the little horizontal edges that collect dust and crud, especially in the kitchen. Thus I’d like to make slab doors out of veneer plywood with edge banding.
That said, I also don’t like little 1/4″ wide pieces along the edges. I’d rather go with something at least 3/4″ or, and this is the thrust of the question – if I could get away with it, 1 1/2″ wide edging around all 4 sides of the plywood slabs.
Now, the cabinet face frames are ash. I re-sawed 8/4 timbers to achieve a rather handsom 1/4 sawn grain figure for all the face frames. The rub is, even after milling and letting the wood season in the shop for a few weeks, the atmosphere in the shop is, obviously quite different from what it is in the house. I’ve found that now that all the base boxes have been installed (about three weeks ago) the rails and stiles are no longer perfectly flush as they were in the shop. Plus I kinda went over the edge with the joinery and half lapped everything. Inside the door openings where some of the half laps are visible, the stiles and shrunk at least 1/64 perhaps some a bit more so they’re also visibly ….. shall we say, non-flush.
So, if I edge banded a sheet of ash plywood with 1 1/2″ verts and horz would I be asking for trouble? I think I’ve already answered my own question but in case someone has an idea how to make this happen I’d like to hear it.
Thanks in advance.
………..
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
View Full Version : When to finish edge banding if using pre-finished ply for kitchen cabinets?
mreza Salav
I am planning (way ahead) for the possibility of building kitchen cabinets for a new house we are building next year.
An initial ball-park of $60-100k for cabinets has made me seriously considering this option, so have started looking into
different ways of building and have my first simple(?) question in a possibly very long series to come later:
If one uses pre-finished plywood for boxes in a frame-less cabinet, when and how do you apply the finish to edge banding?
Let's say the cabinet doors and the edge banding are going to be cherry (and possibly stained a little darker).
It seems awfully difficult to stain/finish the edge banding after they are applied...
Sam Murdoch
You can get prefinished edgebanding but I see that you want your edge to match the exteriors - good question :confused:. I guess (though I have not and hope to never need to) considering that the interiors will be prefin ply I would just apply the edge banding and finish the banding with a stain and then hand wiped poly. You shouldn't need to mask anything as long as you wipe the stain immediately off the ply as you do the edge band. Not much will stick to the prefin ply. Might also be able to use a pad lacquer on the tape rather than the poly, but I would try a sample before going too far. The lacquer might melt in to the prefin of the ply - could be difficult to control.
Curious to hear if others have actually done this. I'm pretty much strictly a face frame builder.
frank shic
fastcap makes a product called fastedge and has it in several shades. there's also a video on the site that shows you how to stain edgebanding after applying it.
mreza Salav
If you use face frame, do you finish the frame before installation? how do you get the edges flush with the box (if you do that) given that the sheet material are not necessarily even thickness?
fastcap makes a product called fastedge and has it in several shades. there's also a video on the site that shows you how to stain edgebanding after applying it.
But the stain/color may not match with the doors?
In general, how do people go about this if using pre-finished ply with frameless boxes? Do they make the edge banding the same color as the box? I know there are pre-finished banding too.
Waiting to hear from the crowd here....
Sam Murdoch
If you use face frame, do you finish the frame before installation? how do you get the edges flush with the box (if you do that) given that the sheet material are not necessarily even thickness?
Yes I finish the face frame before installing on the boxes prefinished plywood or otherwise - unless they are all the exact same finish. I flush the face frames to the boxes with biscuits. In the case of an 1-1/2" face frame and 2 slightly less than 3/4" ply sides I am always working off of the inside edge of the face frame and ply so the discrepancies in ply thickness are mitigated. If the FFs are wider I simply add spacers between my boxes. I think most people do not flush the insides but I have found this to be far more efficient and professional looking, and allows for complete access to a cabinet - no hidden corners that gather crap and/or require bumping out for drawer slides, hinges, etc.
Leo Graywacz
Staining it isn't that big of a deal, the pre finished ply would just wipe clean with alcohol and the stain would be gone. The finishing would require masking.
frank shic
the edge banding does not have to be a 100% match with the doors and drawer fronts. it'd probably be hard to achieve unless you use the same species wood.
mreza Salav
Staining it isn't that big of a deal, the pre finished ply would just wipe clean with alcohol and the stain would be gone. The finishing would require masking.
Masking the whole box (if spraying the edges) is something I thought professionals won't have the time to do. I am trying to see if there is an easier way.
the edge banding does not have to be a 100% match with the doors and drawer fronts. it'd probably be hard to achieve unless you use the same species wood.
Our current house has cabinets made by a big (Canadian) manufacturer and the edge banding (on melamine particle board) is an exact match to the doors (which is stained maple).
I thought of using the same species of the wood for doors and banding.
Given that I'll be building this for our own house I'm trying to not cut corners and get something that is at least as good as (or even better than) what I can contract out;
for this reason I'm trying to find the techniques pro's use.
I suppose I could use solid wood (say 1/4" thick) instead of edge banding to cover the edges. I could finish those strips and then just glue/pin them in place, but then again
it's hard to get that flush (on both inside and outside of the box) with plywood.
Am I making this more complicated than necessary?
Jamie Buxton
I've tried all sorts of things, and I've never found a way to edgeband prefinished plywood that gives results I like. I don't like vinyl edgebanding, because even the best vinyl doesn't look like wood. I've tried applying unfinished banding, trimming it flush, and staining/clearcoating to match. Trimming it exactly flush without scratching the prefinished is tricky at best. And "match" is always challenging. So I use unfinished plywood, band with 1/8" lumber of the same species, trim flush, ease the corners, and then apply the finish. It is laborious, but the only way to get results that I can live with.
Leo Graywacz
Masking is part of the job when it is part of the job. If you are planning on using the prefinished then plan on masking in the price. You would always hold up a paint cutting in knife and spray there, but that would likely end up with overspray because of the slow speed you would have to work at.
Brian Weick
Well now!.......look who I found........
B,
Leo Graywacz
Oh noooooo :eek:
:D
With competitive price and timely delivery, Lituo sincerely hope to be your supplier and partner.
Steve Griffin
One option is to make 1/4" thick banding yourself out of the primary wood. Finish this loose, exactly like the doors, and then pin nail/glue on the cabinets. It's basically free, as it uses up table saw fall off, and gives the cabinets a slightly higher quality look than the skinny tape.
Another option is to not bother to try and match the banding at all and keep your door reveals tight-- 1/16" and you don't see the banding anyway. I think banding that looks different than the plywood looks terrible anyway--it's nicer if it is the same wood as the plywood so it "goes away" and suggests solid wood.
trevor adair
I am "still" doing my kitchen and using pre-finished ply for the boxes. I am also using 1/2 pre-finished for the shelves. I bought pre-finished maple veneer banding from http://www.veneersupplies.com and have been very happy with it.. it covers the edge plys for the shelves perfectly. I know they also sell prefinished Cherry banding, you might try contacting them by email and see if he will send you a sample.. I have only ordered twice from them but have been very pleased both times... they are also quick to answer emails
frank shic
One option is to make 1/4" thick banding yourself out of the primary wood. Finish this loose, exactly like the doors, and then pin nail/glue on the cabinets. It's basically free, as it uses up table saw fall off, and gives the cabinets a slightly higher quality look than the skinny tape.
Another option is to not bother to try and match the banding at all and keep your door reveals tight-- 1/16" and you don't see the banding anyway. I think banding that looks different than the plywood looks terrible anyway--it's nicer if it is the same wood as the plywood so it "goes away" and suggests solid wood.
1/16" is REALLY TIGHT...
mreza Salav
Thanks for the comments.
Steve: with solid wood banding, do you get the banding flush with the ply on both sides (inside and outside the box)? Given that there is a tiny variation in thickness of ply I think
this is next to impossible but I guess it doesn't matter for outside of the box (only flush inside is important).
So it appears the options are:
- Use solid wood edging (like Steve)
- Use the same color pre-finished edge banding as the ply, so all the box is the same color.
- Use a pre-finished (same wood species) banding, but this might not have the same stain/finish as the doors
- Mask all the box (after applying the banding) and finish them (which doesn't seem easy and I suspect won't give the best results).
I am surprised, I thought there should be a standard and easy method for all aspects of kitchen making by now (especially for frame-less boxes as they are supposed to be faster and easier to build).
Alan Bienlein
There is an easy method and we do it all the time at work. We use the .5mm wood tape that is the same species as the cabinet doors. Put some double sided tape down on a piece of 1/4" scrap ply or Masonite and layout 8 to 10 foot long strips side by side. Then you proceed to stain and finish them to the color you desire and then apply to the edges of your cabinet pieces.
It's really very simple and no masking of cabinets required!
mreza Salav
There is an easy method and we do it all the time at work. We use the .5mm wood tape that is the same species as the cabinet doors. Put some double sided tape down on a piece of 1/4" scrap ply or Masonite and layout 8 to 10 foot long strips side by side. Then you proceed to stain and finish them to the color you desire and then apply to the edges of your cabinet pieces.
It's really very simple and no masking of cabinets required!
Thanks Alan, that's what I wanted to hear.
When you say "wood tape" do you mean real wood banding with adhesive on the back (that you iron on) or just plain veneer that needs glue to be applied on its back?
If it is the former what type of double sided tape do you use that won't affect (or stick too hardly) to the adhesive on the back?
Matthew Hills
There is an easy method and we do it all the time at work. We use the .5mm wood tape that is the same species as the cabinet doors. Put some double sided tape down on a piece of 1/4" scrap ply or Masonite and layout 8 to 10 foot long strips side by side. Then you proceed to stain and finish them to the color you desire and then apply to the edges of your cabinet pieces.
It's really very simple and no masking of cabinets required!
Do you have any issues with the edges?
(in my limited banding experience, after trimming the banding flush, I also did a light sanding to ease the edges -- this would seem to undo that refinishing work)
Matt
johnny means
Professionals would stick and trim all the edge banding then stack the panels so that only the front edges show. Finish would them be sprayed on just the exposed front edges.
Alan Bienlein
Professionals would stick and trim all the edge banding then stack the panels so that only the front edges show. Finish would them be sprayed on just the exposed front edges.
Last time I checked we are a professional cabinet shop. Why band the pieces and then have to cart them to the finish room when the finisher could stain the wood edge tape while the pieces are being cut out on the cnc. By the time the job is cut out the edge banding is ready and they are run thru the egdebander and immediately ready for assembly.
Matt we have our holzher edgebander set so that the edges require no sanding when they come out the other end. If any sanding is required tells us our cutters need to be moved to a sharp edge or changed.
frank shic
Professionals would stick and trim all the edge banding then stack the panels so that only the front edges show. Finish would them be sprayed on just the exposed front edges.
...or use an automated edgebander!
Alan Bienlein
Thanks Alan, that's what I wanted to hear.
When you say "wood tape" do you mean real wood banding with adhesive on the back (that you iron on) or just plain veneer that needs glue to be applied on its back?
If it is the former what type of double sided tape do you use that won't affect (or stick too hardly) to the adhesive on the back?
You could see if they havepeel and stick wood edgebanding in the species you want to use.
Sometimes the finishers use blue painters tape thats 2" wide that they fold over on itself so that it's only 1" widebut with the sticky side facing out so it sticks to the wood tape and to the substrate used to finish it on.
Phil Thien
Matt we have our holzher edgebander set so that the edges require no sanding when they come out the other end. If any sanding is required tells us our cutters need to be moved to a sharp edge or changed.
But isn't the tape something like 13/16" wide, and then is trimmed flush after it is applied? When it is edge-trimmed, you remove the stain and finish on the edges, right?
So if you prefinished some cherry tape with a darker stain and some spray finish, and then trimmed it after it is applied, now the stain and finish are gone at the edges. I know the stuff is thin, but doesn't that stand out like a sore thumb?
Steve Griffin
Thanks for the comments.
Steve: with solid wood banding, do you get the banding flush with the ply on both sides (inside and outside the box)? Given that there is a tiny variation in thickness of ply I think
this is next to impossible but I guess it doesn't matter for outside of the box (only flush inside is important).
.......
To answer your question, I plane scraps to the thickness of the plywood plus a fuzz--maybe 1/64 or less. Then rip it to 1/4" plus and run through wide belt sander to clean up the saw marks on both sides. If no belt sander, you'll want to use a good table saw blade and sand with ROS.
Having a tiny extra width speeds up putting on the strips and allows for the occasional buldge in the ply.
When cutting the strips, you'll need a zero tolerance fence on the chop saw, and it's nice to have a stop system so you can crank out similar sizes. Doesn't take long at all to band a full kitchen.
Having said all that, unless you are really set on euro style overlay cabinets, don't rule out face frames. They look nice, and can be scribed to walls, and often provide helpful structure (such as upper cabinets that need a light valance and have large openings).
Alan Bienlein
But isn't the tape something like 13/16" wide, and then is trimmed flush after it is applied? When it is edge-trimmed, you remove the stain and finish on the edges, right?
So if you prefinished some cherry tape with a darker stain and some spray finish, and then trimmed it after it is applied, now the stain and finish are gone at the edges. I know the stuff is thin, but doesn't that stand out like a sore thumb?
No. And if for some reason it does you just use a touchup pen.
Phil Thien
No. And if for some reason it does you just use a touchup pen.
Okay, good to know.
Thanks Alan!
mreza Salav
Thanks to all. I think I've got some good options to consider if and when it comes to start building the cabinets.
Greg Portland
Thanks for the comments.
Steve: with solid wood banding, do you get the banding flush with the ply on both sides (inside and outside the box)? Given that there is a tiny variation in thickness of ply I think
this is next to impossible but I guess it doesn't matter for outside of the box (only flush inside is important).
So it appears the options are:
- Use solid wood edging (like Steve)
- Use the same color pre-finished edge banding as the ply, so all the box is the same color.
- Use a pre-finished (same wood species) banding, but this might not have the same stain/finish as the doors
- Mask all the box (after applying the banding) and finish them (which doesn't seem easy and I suspect won't give the best results).
I am surprised, I thought there should be a standard and easy method for all aspects of kitchen making by now (especially for frame-less boxes as they are supposed to be faster and easier to build).
You forgot the last option: Buy the entire cabinet pre-finished. My Dad purchased pre-finished cabinets + doors from one of the better internet direct factories (1/4" increments allowed for the dimensions, solid ply case, solid wood edge & doors, etc.). They also supplied finished trim & all the hardware. IMO, I would not fiddle with color matching edgebanding & dealing with a lower quality finish (over the baked factory finishes). Spend the little bit extra for complete cabinets and install everything yourself. You should be able to get something _VERY_ nice for $20k-$25k. Then you just need to install it (not trivial!). You are also responsible for the plans.
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